Reminiscences with Senator Joseph Wayas

Second Republic Senate President, Joseph Wayas, was born in Basang, Obudu, Cross River State. He was a Commissioner for Transport in the South-eastern state, now broken into Akwa Ibom and Cross River States. He was also a member of the Constituent Assembly from 1977 – 1978. The astute politician, who recently turned 75, opened his doors to Daily Trust on Sunday, where he spoke on the relationship between the legislature and executive during the Second Republic, among others.

On May 21, you added another year to your glorious years. How did you celebrate your recent birthday?
I thank God that I am alive. I wish for more blessings.
 
Was there any special event put together to mark the day?
 When you reach my age, you won’t be thinking of social events because dancing may not be your main focus. You have other people to dance if you have to dance with them.
 
You are an elder statesman who has made a mark in the history of this country. Having attained this age, how were things when you were growing up?
 That is a question that you have to give me time. It’s a long time. I should be looking at current affairs and how to use the experience of the past to solve any problem that comes before me so that it will be beneficial for the whole country. I am very happy with Nigerians for showing me love and respect all the time.
 
How was the relationship between the executive and the legislative arms of government during your time?
 Don’t forget that we introduced presidential system in the constitution we inherited. In the system, you have three main departments. After the executive arm of government which is headed by the President, we have the legislature led by Senate President and the judiciary which is headed by the Chief Justice of Nigeria (CJN). They (the three arms of government) are trying. In the last few days, I have been hearing in the news that Nigeria’s democracy is 17-year-old. I am very sure that during these 17 years, we have learnt a lot about the presidential system. We hope that we will keep growing. We pray for Nigeria to continue, this time not 17, but to reach 70 years of democracy so that we will benefit from the experiment of presidential system of government.
 
Can you share with us, how you become Senate President at the time?
I don’t know what you want to hear from me. But I will tell you that the office of Senate President was the least thing on my mind when we started the presidential system. I didn’t even know that I would be one of the chief actors of the system. I found myself there. I thought of doing my best to try and hold the system as far as the legislature is concerned. We did the best that we could do. Nigeria is a very wonderful country with great opportunities for all. As I am talking to you, I still learn a lot about what is going on. Whenever my advice is sought and needed, it’s important I provide those experiences to help others who are coming up as elder statesmen.

The NPN had about 36 senators during your time. Was it the accord you were said to have entered into with the NPP that gave your party an edge in the national assembly?
 We practiced parliamentary system of government before we got to that point. Most of the experiences gathered were from parliamentary system, where the executive and the legislature sit together. Nigeria is a country that moves very fast. Once you get to such position that I reached at the time, you have to learn to move faster. You remember that you owe a duty to other younger ones who are coming up. The younger ones who take over should be able to do those things you cannot complete.
 
You said that you introduced the presidential system of government in 1979. What did you have in mind regarding the motive behind its adoption?
What did we have in mind? Before then there was a constitutional conference. We took part at that conference, where a lot of obstacles on the way were cleared. That made the presidential system to work. We were tired of military rule. We wanted democracy, which is being practiced now, to be the type implemented and we had less problems or troubles.      
 
You were said to have had a very cordial working relationship with former President Shehu Shagari. What type of president was he?
 What a question to ask! Don’t forget that former President Shagari had experience in parliamentary system. He brought his experience of parliamentary system to help in the establishment of the presidential system of government. Yes, we worked closely together. There was a healthy understanding between us. He assisted when his assistance was needed. You can’t claim to know everything in life. Sometimes, if he required some advice, he would send for us. The advice would help him, especially when he had any problem. It helped him a lot to solve the problems which we had on a day-to-day basis concerning the running of government. A nation as big as Nigeria is not a joke; everything done has to be taken seriously.
 
Recently, we had disagreements between the executive and the legislature over the 2016 budget. Did you have that kind of disagreement during your time?
 No, we didn’t. As I said, the president was a well experienced and exposed politician.  As far as the parliamentary system was concerned, he had deep experience. He brought that experience to help the presidential system to grow even though the time was not enough. A four-year period is not enough to practice for a diverse nation like Nigeria. That is what I can say as far as that is concerned.
 
What kind of relationship existed between your party and the president who headed the executive? Did the party enjoy its supremacy? Was it able to dictate to the executive the need to channel their programmes towards achieving the goals of the party manifesto?
 You used a word that made me think better on why you are interested in this. You said to ‘dictate’. You only have dictation when you have a military government. But when you have a democratically elected government, they co-habit and work together. They assist each other to achieve the objectives of the party, being the ruling party. So, once you have that kind of situation, you will have peace. I am aware, looking back intellectually, that personalities can grow. But they should not grow above the party or the organization that has brought them out. They will always be under the supervision and movement of the practice of democracy, whatever situation they find themselves, whether in the legislature or the executive. And that was what happened. 
 
Currently, the Senate President is from the ruling party, the All Progressives Congress (APC). Yet, the party is still witnessing acrimony probably because of the way he emerged as Senate President. Did you have such situation?
 Not, at all. It also depends on the exposure which the Senate President has. I think we should give some degree of patience. Whatever you do in life, there is a learning period. And there is a period when you utilize or use the experience you have gathered to solve problems.
 
Still on the legislature, Nigerians complain against the National Assembly over the issues of jumbo pay, furniture and other sundry allowances that the federal lawmakers enjoy. Did you face similar complaints?
 No, we didn’t have a situation like that. Don’t forget that younger people are coming on board as far as the practice of democracy is concerned and you don’t expect things to be the same. There will always be differences to look at. Yes, it is quite some time now since we started democracy and the presidential system of government. It cannot be the same like when we started. We came newly out of the parliamentary system into the executive. I think we should be patient for them to learn because many of these people are new to the system. They come as new lawmakers from the general public to become the main actors in their respective fields of practice. So, that is why we are saying that continuity is the best solution. It will make our system to grow from strength to strength. I think that is what is happening.
 
Did you have any such thing as constituency projects during your time in the senate as is the case today?
I don’t know what you mean by constituency projects. Every government makes promises when they are campaigning and when they get there they try to keep to those promises. For instance in Nigeria we have three tiers of government; you have the federal, the state and thee local government. In other to move on smoothly sometimes they intersect each other and sometime we expect the younger people to know less. That is why it is good to have executives to operate in these three tiers of government because they would bring experience to bear on making the country grow and the individuals would learn too. I am not saying that the individuals have overgrown.

What type of car were you driving as Senate President?
I would have told you there is no need for this question but having put it the way you did I will try to respond. During our time we tried as much to show that we were not squandering money. Again you have to remember that manufacturing of vehicles changes a lot. I doubt if even at this moment some of these types of vehicles marketed here are produced here in Nigeria. With the exception of Peugeot and Volkswagen; those are the only two that are produced here in Nigeria.

Still talking about the National Assembly how many ad-hoc committees did you have during your time as compared to the large number that we have currently?
Well I think it depends on what the legislative arm of government is thinking or sometimes it works with what the party has to establish which forms the condition to work towards and they get their men in both the executive and the legislature to work together and assist. I have not mentioned judiciary because the judiciary is a separate entity on its own in the sense that they have the chief justice of the federation and in the various spheres of the judiciary. Just like you have the tiers of government they have a method of doing things and the type of cases that are taken to the judiciary determine how far they will work. What I am trying to say is that if you have a case that is with the judiciary there are already established levels that the cases can be taken to. They start from zero to get to the top; unlike the executive or the legislature on how they work to achieve their levels too.

Before the inauguration of President Shehu Shagauri the then ruling party, the NPN, was said to have gone into an accord with the NPP headed by Dr Nnamdi Azikiwe. What were the terms of that accord?
You have called those who existed long before I came along; how would I know? All I know is that we benefitted from their experience. They were gentlemen who believed in serving the nation and they were doing it so well. Due to the presidential system that we practiced things took place step by step and in the process so many problems were resolved and sorted out and people showed understanding for one another and respect for the level of cooperation they had. They were ready to serve and make sacrifice so I would say that we have come along up to this point today because of our desire to serve the nation.

I recall that you wrote a book titled ‘Nigeria’s Leadership Role in Africa’. What was your motivation for writing the book?
What else would motivate me to write a book on that subject matter? If you look back on the various things that Nigeria has done within this period there have been leadership roles very much and also Nigeria has become a fitting example that people within Africa can come and learn how we handle a particular issue.

During an interview you granted in 2013 you reportedly said a governor once asked you how you have been coping with survival after retirement and your candid response was that you were surviving by the goodwill of the people. Has the situation changed any better?
Survival has been very good and I still enjoy people’s goodwill. Look at how you came in here; I receive people every day. The learning process that we are going through is one that makes younger people anxious and ready to study people who are ahead of them and thereby do better. It is always difficult; when you don’t wear the shoe you won’t know where it pinches. People who wear the shoe know whether the shoe is pricking their feet or is leveling the feet.

Talking about young people I remember you once gave the story of a young man (a public servant) who used to squeeze out some money in an envelope to give you and say ‘I know you don’t have; take this and manage’ and you accepted it in good faith. Are you still surviving through handouts?
Yes; otherwise I would not exist. I am not saying it is a monopoly or I am the only one surviving like this. But if we were to bring God inside in our discussion I would say yes it is God our creator that prepared this passage for us. Since God our creator cannot come down himself and begin to do the dishing out he uses some of his children who are well to do to help those who are hungry.

You were one of those that recommended zoning in the Nigerian political system. Looking at the way it has evolved over time would you say it is the kind that you envisaged?
Yes zoning helps because during the early parliamentary system we knew of a particular section that would always want to grab what is available. That was why the idea came that we must split in such a way that if this group has it this time then another group should have it the next time. This way it creates peace and everything would go round. That is the kind of zoning I envisaged and I think I am satisfied with the way it is being practiced.

What parallels can you draw on corruption between now and during your days in the Second Republic?
As you ask this question you should also consider the fact that efforts are being made to rearrange these things. I think that well-meaning Nigerians think well before they do anything. We talk about corruption everyday but I believe it would be wiped out of the way eventually.

You are said to be a personal friend to the boxing legend, Mohammed Ali. How did you become friends and what is the bond of your friendship?
We are personal friends even though we haven’t seen each other for the past few years. I used to visit America a lot and some part of my schooling also had to do with it. Mohammed believes in a black man; he loves black men like us. In fact he says he is black himself. So we became friends. He visits Nigeria a lot and while in Nigeria he visits me and I used to visit him in the US in my younger days.

If you were to be Senate President again what would you do differently?
That is a hypothetical question. I cannot be Senate President again. I have retired and left the seat for the younger ones. This is to enable them also have the opportunity; people like you.

Tell us about your welfare; how have you been faring?
It has been challenging just like every other Nigerian has welfare challenge. We hope that by the faith of God as every day comes by, our past problems would be over and we will move into a new dawn.

If any government official comes to seek your advice as an elder statesman, what would you offer?
Well, it would depend on what the problem is. I believe the government in power will listen to people’s complaints and try to address them. That is why democracy is good. Over a period of time when the next election comes by the people will use it to pass judgment and if there was anything wrong it would be demonstrated by the people but if things were right they will equally show it.

The administration of President Muhammadu Buhari just marked one year in office, what is your assessment of the government so far?
That question is not meant for me; go and ask people who are there. But like I earlier mentioned even the President learns something new every day. Now he has marked one year and sooner than later it would be four years.

What would you say concerning growing agitations in parts of the country especially the MASSOP who are agitating for an independent state of Biafra?
We have dealt with this problem before. I think those who are agitating should mind their steps and words. Every part of the country is involved in one issue or the other that they use to campaign during elections. If people are asking for creation of states it is a different thing but not independence of Biafra to create another nation; that is not what is expected of any meaningful Nigeria. Like I said it is an issue that was dealt with and pushed aside long ago.