You were among the active politicians in the 1970s, how did you join politics?
I was a member of the National Party of Nigeria (NPN), even before its inception. I joined politics in 1976 and I was made councillor by the old Kano State Government. At that time, there was a system where there would be few councillors in each local government who were elected. There were few councillors who were nominated by the state government and I happened to be one of them. I was nominated to represent Gwaram and Birnin Kudu Local Government. It was one local government at that time. Now, each one is a local government. That was the time I joined real politics. But my politicking antecedent started when I was a student of the Ahmadu Bello University (ABU), Zaria. I was one of the student leaders. I involved myself in the politics of the university. During that period, I got close to the late Malam Aminu Kano. He published some books to propagate his political ideologies and I was responsible for distributing those books, not only in ABU but also in the University of Ibadan, University of Lagos and so on. I was about to be dismissed from the university for doing that because it was wrong to find a student involving himself in party politics beyond the activities in the campus.
You served as a minister in Shehu Shagari’s cabinet, how many of your colleagues are still alive?
Few years ago, I had a discussion with the present Minister of Agriculture, Audu Ogbeh, who was also a minister then and he said we were only nine alive. At that time, Alex Ekwueme was still alive, but he is now late. Going by what Ogbeh said, it means we are only eight left.
Are you in touch with one another?
Yes, those of us who are alive, such as Audu Ogbeh and Adamu Ciroma and few others do meet at public occasions from time to time.
You said you got close to the late Malam Aminu Kano, but you were never in the same political party; what happened?
That was in the university. When I was out of the university it was entirely a different historical perspective. The NPN started where you are sitting now – in my house. At that time, there was a military ban on politics and it was agreed that northern leaders with like-minds would meet and put their differences aside in order to move the country forward. We were expected to work together as one team and one people. D. S Tarka from the Middle Belt and others from other regions put their heads together for this course.
It was decided that we should meet in Kano and formulate an idea of what, where to go and how to move. I was a young man at that time, so it was agreed that the meeting would be held in my house, here in Tarauni.
We couldn’t hold the meeting until 1am or thereabouts so that nobody would know that people were meeting here. And anybody who came in a car, the driver would just drop him and move away so that there would not be any suspicion. Those who came were NPN’s interim chairman, Aliyu Makaman Bidda; Alhaji Aminu Kano; Alhaji Inuwa Wada; Umaru Dikko; Adamu Ciroma; Sola Saraki; Shehu Shagari; Yahaya Konde; Alhaji Sule Gaya, Sarkin Fadan Kano; Professor Iya Abubakar; Alhaji Yusuf Maitama Sule. The youth wing included the late Ibrahim Kura, Bashir Dalhatu; Alhaji Bashir Tofa; the late Sultan of Sokoto, Ibrahim Dasuki; Sarkin Malamai, Ibrahim Gusau and many other people. We agreed that we would move forward as a political entity to be known as the National Movement of Nigeria (NMN).
We later moved to Lagos and there were a series of meetings. It was in Lagos that the name, National Movement of Nigeria was muted and there were appointments. We agreed that Makaman Bidda would be the interim national chairman while the secretary was Adamu Ciroma. Ibrahim Tahir later became the secretary. I was made the assistant treasurer of the party while Ibrahim Dasuki was the national treasurer. Malam Aminu Kano was made the publicity secretary of the movement. We were all happy that we worked together as a team.
When I was coming to Kano, in fact, I was sitting next to Aminu Kano in the plane and we talked about how Nigeria would be if we worked as a team. We talked about so many things. I told him that as a leader of reckoning, the people were looking up to him, hoping that he would lead and we would follow. He said I should not worry.
When our plane landed at the Kano airport, it was surrounded by Malam’s people, including Abubakar Rimi, Alhaji Sabo Bakinzuwo, Alhaji Dangalan, Professor Dandatti Abdulkadir. They were waiting for his arrival. They were shouting that Malam was being humiliated with the position of publicity secretary of the movement and that they would not agree. From that moment I sensed that there would be trouble. Therefore, the following day, I went to Alhaji Aminu Dantata and told him what happened after our return from Lagos. I told him to plead with Malam Aminu Kano so that our togetherness would not be tampered with. The sense of brotherhood and unity in northern Nigeria should be intact. He went to Malam and pleaded with him, and I think he gave him his words.
However, in less than one week, I saw in the news that a new political party called the Peoples Redemption Party (PRP) was formed here in Kano. The founders met at Bagauda Hotel and made Malam Aminu Kano the leader of the party. I really felt bad. I was not happy at all because I knew Malam Aminu Kano. There was no way you would write him off in Kano or anywhere in northern Nigeria. Those who felt he didn’t belong to the NPN were not at the meeting. That was how it started. However, there was politics without bitterness. The PRP’s symbol was a key and that of the NPN was house with maize. The purpose was that there would be a provision of food and shelter for anybody who chose the NPN. We were jokingly saying to members of the PRP that anybody who didn’t have a house and you gave him a key, which house do you think he would open?
How would you compare politics during your time and what obtains these days?
There is an ocean of differences between the two. These days you wonder what is really happening. During our time, political parties were supreme. A political party could discipline anybody, no matter how highly placed he was. When a party said no, it was real. When it said yes, it was yes, and nobody could go against its decision. This is what made it different. For example, in the NPN, even after it became a ruling party and Chief Akinloye was the national chairman, we had a caucus meeting every Monday at Ribadu House; that was the presidential villa. I remember that every Monday, we usually met at 9pm. I can vividly remember that those in attendance were the national chairman, deputy national chairman, president of the Senate, leader of the party and few ministers. I was among them. Adamu Ciroma, Alhaji Umaru Dikko, and of course, the secretary to the government were among them. We would sit down and discuss issues that concerned the country. And if there was any misunderstanding within the party in any state, the caucus would direct the national chairman to nominate people who would go to that state and make sure the problem was resolved.
During the caucus meeting, the national chairman would preside, while the president would listen and abide by our decisions. Many of the parties at that time were very strong and they could discipline anybody. But now, the leaderships of various parties are not strong. This is not what it ought to be. Unless you put a party above all its members, it would be difficult to make headway in politics. Whenever there is democracy in action there is justice. Anybody who felt he or she had been treated unfairly would petition, and we would sit and talk. To me, the main difference is the supremacy of the party during our time.
As a minister of commerce you succeeded in curtailing issues relating to importation. What was the secret?
When I became minister, many people, especially in the far north, didn’t know there was anything called import licences. I felt that those of us in politics shouldn’t make it one-sided. At that time, 80 to 90 per cent of all the import licences in Nigeria were issued in Lagos, mostly to Lagos business people. I said that should not be the case because some people were left out, mostly people in the North. Our businessmen didn’t know about import licence and I thought it was not fair. I ensured that import licences were shared among Nigerians, irrespective of the regions they came from, so that everybody would know how to import. We also realised that in the North there was no money, so when we got some people, we asked some banks to open a letter of credit for them. That was how it all started, and today, I am proud to see some people who are prominent businessmen in Bauchi, Adamawa, Maiduguri who can do commercial dealings in importation and so on.
However, in the import licences that were given out, as a minister, I ensured that I never gave out beyond what was budgeted. I also ensured that I stopped the ugly trend of giving lion shares of the money budgeted to Lagos. Before we came on board, the trend was that if N100million was budgeted, for example, N950m would be issued in Lagos and only N50m would be shared among other states in the country. And that made the economy to be lopsided. These were some of the things I corrected when I become minister, and it really helped the country. Unfortunately, some people were accusing Shagari’s government of corruption, but history will judge us right. I am very happy that we served Nigeria with open minds. We believe empowering people is very important.
From the return of democracy in 1999 till date, do you think Nigeria has moved forward?
We have kept moving forward and backwards, and I don’t really understand it. It has been a case of the more you go the less you see. If our democratic system had not been tampered with, by whatever factor, we would have gone higher. When it was tampered with, things had to start again. There’s no continuity, and that’s not good at all. I hope this trend would stop. Government is a continuous process, so whichever party that comes in should continue to serve the people. That’s how the western world operates democracy. I mean whatever is good for the country, once it is genuinely started, they don’t stop it. This is what I want to see happening in Nigeria and Africa generally.
You were at the forefront during the fight against Obasanjo’s third term bid. Why did you kick against that agenda?
I was actually at the forefront in the battle against the third term agenda of Obasanjo. Anybody who tells you that Obasanjo didn’t know anything about third term is a liar. Obasanjo knew everything about third term; he wanted to continue. I was sitting here in my house when I was called to the villa and I saw Obasanjo with my governor, Ibrahim Saminu Turaki, who was also in the forefront for the success of the third term. I went there with Senator Muhammad Ibrahim on behalf of Jigawa and Obasanjo. He told me that he would build a tertiary institution in my constituency in Gwaram.
Was it to bribe you?
Call it whatever, either an enticement or whatever. Some senators were deeply involved in seeing that this thing happened. But many of us didn’t see why it should happen in a democracy. If you don’t go, the next person will not emerge, and development belongs to change. If you don’t change things you would not be there. My speech in the National Assembly contributed immensely to the fall of third term. It was a major speech because many senators who were not convinced on what to do decided that the third term bid was over. I said to them that if former President Obasanjo ruled for eight years he would become the longest serving civilian president in the country, but what difference would it make? I told them that leaders like Tafawa Balewa, Ahmadu Bello, Nnamdi Azikiwe and Obafemi Awolowo served for five years, and if you compared them to Obasanjo’s eight years, you would see the differences, not in the years but in the level of development achieved. I gave them comparative religious analysis. I said it’s not staying in office long enough that brings development; in fact, sometimes it retards development. I said that religiously, Prophet Noah lived for 1,000 years, preached for 950 years and got only 83 followers, but Jesus Christ, a messenger of Allah, preached for only three years, but look at what he achieved. Almost half of the world at that time was about to become Christians. Look at his achievements for only three years. Prophet Muhammad (SAW) preached for 23 years and almost the whole world became Islamised.
Those who fought fiercely against Obasanjo’s third term didn’t make it that year. I didn’t know whether there was connivance against the system. I knew it would come to that, which was why I didn’t want to break the political record I had set – I have never been defeated in any election. I contested three times as a senator during the Abacha era, but when Abdulsalami Abubakar came, he dissolved it, so we were not sworn in. I later contested again and won. And by the grace of God, if I contested again I would have won. But there was a conspiracy against those who fought against third term. There was a plot against me not to come back. So I wrote a letter to the Independent National Electoral Commission (INEC), Jigawa office and honourably withdrew from the contest to the Senate seat. People in Jigawa were really shocked at my decision. When I went through the list of those who contested, none who was known as an opponent of the third term won.
Are you regretting fighting third term?
I have no regret whatsoever as far as fighting third term is concerned. If it comes back here today I will fight it again.
Have you retired from active politics?
Who told you? I didn’t tell anybody that I have retired from politics. A politician is always a politician. Politics is a system that works for the betterment of people. To be a real member of the universe you must partake in politics. You must make yourself available for anything that will work together to make the world better. So I am still in active politics because I always want to see the best thing working for my country.
What is your take on the issue of restructuring Nigeria?
I don’t belong to those sentiments. It’s a nonsensical sentiment that is not driving anything good. Nigeria belongs to all Nigerians and we are living happily. Of course there may be some differences, but what is it? Restructuring for what? What is the North gaining? What is the West not gaining? What is the East not gaining? We are all staying here as Nigerians and we have to agree that one good turn deserves another. In other words, we should be each other’s keepers; that is why God made us in Nigeria. If you come to the North, there is land, there are cattle, and there are things for irrigation, and so on. If you go to the western part of the country with Atlantic Ocean, you can bring things, and if you go to the South-East you have people who are very aggressive in commerce. We are all complementing each other. States and local governments are being created.
In restructuring, they will say that each local government has to be given a status of state. And some of them cannot pay salaries. When you are calling for restructuring, are you moving from what to what? I don’t know what you are talking about when you say restructuring. It is like you want to make some people richer and others poorer. To me, that is what it means.
If Lagos calls for restructuring, it can survive on its own. It has developed economically. You can’t compare it to any other part of the country.
What we are trying to do is to work together as a nation so that the differences would not be wide.
The ongoing dispute between Senate President Bukola Saraki and Inspector-General of Police Ibrahim K. Idris is gradually deepening, to the extent that the former has raised a 10-man committee that already met with President Buhari. As a lawyer and somebody who served in the Red Chamber of the National Assembly, what should the two personalities do to stop the feud so that the police and NASS can work together for the development of the country?
All organs of the government should be seen to work in harmony, not only the Senate and the police, for the development, betterment and wellbeing of Nigerians. It would be a disaster when citizens feel that they could not be protected. The executive, judiciary and legislature are independent.
If the Senate invited the Inspector-General of Police, not for the purpose of show of power, he should honour the invitation. But they should not use that position for intimidation or whatever. It has to be level-headed. The IGP has a duty to oblige their call. The Senate is a very strong team, but people don’t know that. It is not the individual that matters; it is the substance of the case in question. The two personalities are apparently over-heating the system. The matter is as cold as ice, but they are making it look like something hot.
How would you assess the Buhari-led government’s fight against corruption?
The president is fighting corruption and corruption is fighting him. That’s what it is. As you can see, corruption can come in many forms. Taking bribe or taking money with a purpose to enrich yourself at the detriment of the majority is bad.
Buhari is not corrupt. You can accuse the president of other things, but certainly, you cannot prove that he is corrupt. But I am not saying that those around him are not corrupt.
You mean you are not comfortable with the way and manner President Buhari is fighting corruption?
I am categorically not comfortable. Certainly, as people are saying, let him make it not to look lopsided. Buhari should punish whoever is found wanting in any form of corrupt practices, even if it involves his son.
I am very comfortable that my president is not corrupt. I am very comfortable that my president is doing the best he can for the country, and I am very comfortable that he is going to get the support of Allah. But I am not comfortable with the way some people are shielded from investigation on allegations of corruption. My advice to the president is that no matter who or to whatever quarter an accused corrupt person belongs, he should act accordingly, with no fear or mercy. But I commend him and pray Allah to help him achieve his goals in respect of the war against corruption.
In April 2015, you engaged in a cold war with the former governor of Jigawa State, Alhaji Sule Lamido, over campaign funds. Can you tell us how the dispute started? Have you resolved it?
Sule Lamido has been my very close friend since school days. I am the only person who would go inside his mother’s room, discuss things with her and eat food there when we were young. Whenever I was going to my hometown, Gwaram, from Lagos, I would branch at Bamaina and greet his parents because I also considered them as my parents. However, when Lamido was nominated as a governorship candidate of the Peoples Democratic Party (PDP), I fought him because we were not in the same political party. I was never in the same party with him right from the beginning, despite the fact that we are good friends. Lamido is a radical person while I am conservative. So naturally, he always belongs to a radical party while I belong to a conservative one. And I have no regret for that. I have never been a radical; I wish to die as a conservative person. That is why when I was in the NPN, he was in the PRP. That does not stop the fact that we are friends.
While he contested for the governorship seat under the PDP, Saminu Turaki contested under the defunct All Nigeria Peoples Party (ANPP). Well, I had to fight for my party. I fought vigorously to help put Turaki in power.
Sule Lamido is a typical Fulani man. I will tell him this to his face – he doesn’t forgive. He will make sure that one day he bites you in a place you never expect.
Somehow, I wanted to run for the governorship of the state and Turaki wanted me. He said I would be governor and Sule Lamido assured me that he would support me. We even sat with Turaki to endorse my governorship ambition.
Turaki took me to Maiduguri and we sealed the agreement that I would be the governor of Jigawa State. The people of Maiduguri were there as witness. We came back, and somehow, Obasanjo and his people deceived Turaki that they would support him to become the president of Nigeria if he gave the governorship ticket to Lamido; and he believed them. Without telling me anything, he went to Lamido in Bamaina and gave him the ticket.
When somebody told me that Turaki went to Bamaina and gave Lamido the governorship ticket, I said that was impossible, but what was impossible became possible. So Lamido became the governorship contestant. After he made Lamido the flag-bearer, Turaki came to realise that if Lamido became the governor of Jigawa, he would be in hell, even before the election. But it was late. He wanted to change, but it was not possible. For whatever reason, his own people, even before the election, began to shift their loyalty to Lamido. And power was removed from him even before the election.
When Lamido became the governor of Jigawa, he sent a petition to the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC) and the next thing I heard was that Ibrahim Saminu Turaki was in Kuje Prison. I went to Kuje, met Saminu and said, ‘Your Excellency, for sure if I were the governor of Jigawa State you know I wouldn’t put you in this condition. Orji Kalu said, ‘Tell him, Bello; this is true.’ He was ashamed. I was saying it from the bottom of my heart. If I were Sule Lamido, since he betrayed people and gave the ticket to me, I wouldn’t do it. But it happened and it has been following Saminu up till today. I am sure he hasn’t got the money over which he is facing charges.
I was in Bauchi when I heard that I had joined the PDP as a member. I swear by Allah that I didn’t know what happened and how I became a PDP member. When I came back, they were in a meeting and they invited me. So I told them that I was surprised I heard my name as a member of the party. Sule Lamido said, ‘Yes, it is me.’ As a friend, he used all his nice talks, and that was how I became a member of the PDP. But he had a motive for doing that. He gave me a contract, which I reluctantly collected. I didn’t want to do it. He said he was giving friends roads construction and so on. He gave me contract to construct the Garun Gabas road. Garun Gabas was the most difficult place to construct a road. It is a real desert. And if you wanted to bring gravel you had to go to Gabasawa or Zakiraiin in Kano State from Hadejia. My son, who was a commissioner and businessman, took the contract. He started, but it was very difficult. He was losing money all the time. And there was what I called connivance with the director of works at that time. If the company did a work for, say N100,000, they would write N20,000 or N25,000. And I asked why? But I said, anyway, it’s our money, at the end of the day they would give us. We were in the middle of the work and had started pouring coal tar; suddenly, just from nowhere, they said the contract was terminated. There were houses that were being built, almost completed. Less than N20million would complete them; some were painted and toilets were being installed in some of them, but they said the company was late for two weeks; therefore, the contract was terminated as well.
So he wanted to cripple me economically. After that, he said we would refund money. Refund money for what? We were asking for money and you were telling us to refund money. He just wanted to taint my name, but he could not. I became a minister and nobody asked me to refund money to anybody, except Lamido’s government.
Again, Senator Anyim Pius Anyim, who was the Secretary to the Government of the Federation severally proposed my name for a federal job, but Lamido would kick against it. Anyim is alive. He would tell me that, ‘your governor didn’t want me to give you the job.’ I thanked him for the offers, but told him not to bother giving me a job because as long as Lamido was the governor of my state, he would never allow it to happen.
When the 2015 general elections approached, I said it was the best time to show Lamido that I was not stupid. So immediately after the presidential election, I gathered as many people as we could and left the party. We moved to the All Progressives Congress (APC) and fought furiously to put Badaru in power. And we succeeded in doing that.
Lamido is not happy with me. He said he gave me N15million to fight for the PDP and I converted it to the APC, so I must go to jail. He wanted to intimidate me. He said he would take me to court, but he could not prove anything. He wanted me to go to jail, but he went to jail twice. And all this time, I prayed for my friend. I wasn’t happy that Lamido was in jail. I wish everybody the best. Life is short and I am now in my injury time. Somebody in his 70s is living only by God’s mercy. So why should you fight anybody? Don’t wish people evil.
