The Katsina State governor, Aminu Bello Masari, has lampooned his colleagues from the southern part of the country agitating for the collection of the Value Added Tax (VAT) by individual states, describing the move as a joke. Rivers and Lagos states recently set plans in motion to start collecting VAT. At a meeting, other governors from the region adopted the position of the two states. But in an exclusive interview with Daily Trust on Sunday last weekend, prior to Thursday’s meeting of the Southern Governors Forum, Masari said both Rivers and Lagos were jokers. The Interview
With about 18 months to the end of your tenure, how would you like to be remembered?
It is a very difficult but simple question. One wants to be remembered as somebody who came, saw and added value to the lives of many people and changed the way people are governed. I want to be remembered as one who provided service and not one the people served.
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One critical issue is that we are really working very hard to make sure that by the time we leave office, normalcy has returned to our communities. If we can restore normalcy to our communities, then certainly, our being here has been worth all the investments we and the people have done.
We met this situation on ground and it has developed overtime. But I think that if we can change the narrative, history will always remember and be kind to us. This also brings humility to service, showing that we are not different from the people we are serving, we are not monsters of the people.
My experience in politics, especially in the parliament, has shown that parliamentarians are always leaders of the principal officers. So, if we see leadership as first among equals, as an opportunity to provide service, I think we will see a progressive future.
I would also like to be remembered as somebody who came and laid a foundation. The people who will come after us will do better because that’s when progress would be made, both in governance and politics.
As I say always, my intention is to provide service. I am working very hard to walk my talk, I don’t like standing to the gallery. I like to say and do what I believe in, even if it hurts.
Did you envisage that rural banditry would balloon into what it has become today?
I did not envisage that it would develop to this situation. I think one can say the responsibility was, and still is that of our intelligence community. They should have learned from history of other countries and even based on their training to predict.
When we came, it was cattle rustling, associated with murder. Ordinary Fulani women and men could not come to villages or markets, either to hawk milk or purchase essential commodities to run their daily lives. The Yan-sa-kai volunteers killed a Fulani man or woman wherever they saw him. That was the situation we met. Not more than six or seven months after we took over, over 140 people were slaughtered around Faskari and Sabuwa local governments. There were a lot of suggestions.
One of the suggestions was that we should unite in the North-West because the most affected states were under one division of the Nigerian Army. We agreed and contributed money and the operations started well with all the security agents, including Immigration and Customs. But like other things, all of us realised that we had to come back home.
When we came, we looked at the structure of the Fulani community under the Miyetti Allah. When they held their election, luckily for us, they elected a civil servant, an assistant director. Through him we were able to make contact with the then leaders of the community. We realised that majority of the people living in the forest were pushed into it, so we set to engage them first. I sent a high-powered delegation to the forest, together with the leadership of the Miyetti Allah. Gradually, we were able to bring most of the leaders out and they agreed to lay down arms. At that time, they were in control of their children.
That led to the surrendering of over 350 assorted AK47 guns and grenades, locally made device and many others, at an elaborate ceremony. Even Buharin Daji, then the most notorious of the bandits, was in attendance in Kankara. We had peace for almost 24 months, except some normal criminality here and there. Markets started flourishing in the communities.
We started building schools; we built 10. We started building clinics; we built 10. We also started demarcation of cattle routes; we spent over N100 million trying to do all the cattle routes, both trans-border and internal. We also set in motion, the process of rehabilitating community grazing areas and the state grazing land.
We had a master plan and approached the federal government under the Natural Resources Fund with our request. But unfortunately, the issue was politicised. It was agreed that what was left in the stabilisation fund should be distributed to all the states on an equal basis, so Katsina got only N200 million.
As we approached 2019, what we did in Katsina was not done in Zamfara. Zamfara constituted up to 70 per cent of our problem as their approach was different from ours, likewise Kaduna. So we were left alone before the election in 2019. Almost all the leaders we had an agreement with were killed by bandits from Zamfara. They were left with only the children, and some of them were scared to continue. So gradually, all of them moved back to the forest and took up arms. By then, kidnapping had started to rear its ugly head. Banditry had started to become an issue; it was no longer cattle rustling, associated with murder.
We went through that, up to the election period. The new governor came and said he wanted to dialogue. He was fully supported by the police and the military. That was the road we followed, but because we did not get the support of our neighbouring state, it collapsed.
We decided to give it another trial. The inspector-general police, military commanders, with all the governors of the North-West states were here. Luckily enough, at that time the governors of Plateau and Taraba had come to sympathise with us. The Kogi governor sent a representative; Niger was also here.
We all agreed that we should try negotiation again under the guidance of the inspector-general of police at that time. He meant well. So we invited the leaders here in Katsina and had two rounds of meeting with them. I volunteered to visit them at places of their choice. I took three days to visit all the frontline local governments in places of their choice. What were their demands? That their people under custody should be released and they in turn would surrender all the animals they had stolen, lay down their arms and participate in the patrol of the forest.
Taking you back a little, in the first initiative we had, we saw the return of over 36,000 herds of cattle, ruminants, donkeys and camels.
So we said since we succeeded in recovery, let us give this one a chance. But this one didn’t see the light of the day. We tried very hard, but by then the real criminality and banditry had set in in the forest and all the efforts to work together again as a group did not yield much result as it did at the first time. The approach was not unanimously agreed by even the governors of these forest areas. That is the truth of the matter.
It failed because there was no way it would have succeeded. We realised that there were hundreds of camps in the forest, each one independent. By then, the presence of Boko Haram or ISWAP was very visible in the forest. There was nobody to negotiate with in the forest area because by then, the bandits had completely taken over. Those who could not withstand the bandits or those who did not join them left to places like Bauchi, some to Gombe, and some as far as Cameroon. They fled.
As at today, 90 per cent of those living in the forest are criminals, bandits and insurgents. So I think the issue of dialoguing with them again is over. I don’t think we should deceive ourselves. What we should do is to assist security agencies.
Some people see dialogue as a way of rewarding criminality; why did you decide to go into it in the first place?
I think people failed to understand what really happened in the first dialogue we had. We made it clear that those who had been convicted should not benefit from the amnesty. I had the opportunity to visit prisons here in Katsina on two occasions and discovered that many of those who were arrested and kept in detention were not charged. And at that time, cattle rustling was not in law books.
As a new governor confronted with this challenge I took all options available to me and tried to see what could be done.
As I said, the first initiative paid off because we saw the recovery of over 30,000 cattle, which were handed over to their owners. And we did not release anybody that had been convicted, but those awaiting trial and did not even have charges against them.
As a leader I have to take certain decisions. Sometimes wrong decisions are taken, which is better than not taking anyone at all. I won’t like to be remembered as an indecisive leader.
I took the decision to dialogue under pressure and influence because I wanted to find out what was really happening in the forest. How did these people who had lived peacefully with our grandfathers and fathers for hundreds of years become enemies over night? It is something to learn. We have learnt a lot. I think the argument that anybody who can kidnap a person and get N10 million will no longer depend on selling a cow at N100,000 is valid.
Coming back to the issue, I have no regret for the decisions I took. I took them on the basis of the information available to me at that time. I can only say with the benefit of hindsight that some of the discussions or opportunities we gave shouldn’t have been given them because they were all here. We could have arrested them and taken action. But we were hoping that something tangible and good would come out of it. It was not weakness or ignorance. We wouldn’t know, but probably, the process would have helped some of them out. Some of them are believed to have left our state or living in the communities as peaceful citizens.
For those who go about saying they (Fulani) have been neglected; okay, if you have been neglected, are you the only people who are not happy? Does it mean that anybody who is not happy in Nigeria should take up arms? It is ridiculous.
Since the advent of oil, it there has been systematic neglect, especially in rural communities. The leadership didn’t do what was right. You cannot blame one particular person. It is the responsibility of leadership to foresee and address these issues in well over 40 years.
For example, we had a local government reform that created a huge vacuum because the village head or district head is no longer relevant. These are the people who live within the communities to enforce law and order but you have stripped them of their powers. Responsibility without authority is nonsense. Yes, he is mai unguwa but there is no authority; he is a village head without authority. A lot of things have been systemic.
The intention of the local government reform was good, but its implementation was bad. That was what brought the situation to what it is. A vacuum was created, and nature abhors it.
What led to the failure of the North-West Commission?
I think many things came in. The president supported the move and even promised to offset whatever we spent. They had already started making part payment of what we spent during that exercise. Some of us kept faith, but banditry and cattle rustling were more in Katsina, Zamfara, Kaduna and Niger. When you brought in other states that were not seriously affected as the four mentioned above, you would not expect the same commitment. If we had stayed within the states that were mostly affected, maybe the programme would have gone farther than it did. However, it achieved its success; there is no doubt about it.
Despite the fact that the issues of security are in the exclusive list, a lot of the work is left in the hands of governors; don’t you think there is the need to devolve more powers to the states to be able to tackle these problems?
Well, we have become chief logistics officers, not chief security officers. You are absolutely right that there should be devolution, not only in the police sector, but in all sectors. We have to devolve in order to address peculiarity in our states. Uniformity cannot give us the kind of security and stability we need to develop. But we should devolve in such a way that will not weaken the federal government because it has the responsibility of protecting the territorial integrity of this country.
There are certain areas that are definitely exclusive, but there are areas you need to devolve. The federal government either takes full responsibility of security issues or creates an enabling environment that gives states the power to have police. There was a time the national police were working side by side with the Native Authority police. There are certain areas of policing that require local touch. Are we not technically funding the police now?
You have to understand the enormity of a situation before you understand how to help it. Here in Katsina State, by 2006 census, the population was 5.7million. Today, 15 years later, if we are growing at 3 per cent, are we not up to eight million? Are the police we have in Katsina more than 3,000, or even not up to that number? I want you to divide 3,000 by eight million and see what the ratio of the population to the policemen will be. When we say people should participate, some people will be saying all kinds of things because they are living in the comfort of their sitting rooms. Go to our villages; are we not helping the police? They don’t have the number, technology and equipment. This is reality, so why are we afraid of saying it? We can help the police by going to the National Assembly and the executive to see how funds can be made more available to them, as well as have more policemen.
If you devolve in the real term, I want to be able to fix the salaries of governors, professionals, civil servants. As a governor I should not expect to earn as much as my colleague in Kano State, not to talk of Lagos because their sources of revenue are not like mine. But that does not take away my authority as governor in Katsina. The same applies to councillors of any of our local governments. Do you expect me to compare myself with a state that generates over N450billion as internal revenue when the best I can have is between N12billion to N15billion? Some states entirely depend on the federation account.
As a province, Katsina depended on agriculture and livestock; we can do it again today. All we need is leadership. People will have to understand that we have to make sacrifices and cut our coat according to our size. This over unification is military barracks administration hoisted on Nigerians, which we cannot do with now.
What is your take on steps by states like Rivers and Lagos to start collecting their own VAT instead of depending on federation account?
First of all, this issue is before the court, so I will not comment directly on it, but I will give you a scenario. What is Lagos without the rest of Nigeria? The market Lagos is boasting of is dependent on the larger part of the country. Benin Republic has a port, Togo has a port; do they have the population to back up the ports? Without us providing the demand part, what will be Lagos or Port Harcourt? The VAT issue serves them and us. We provide the bulk of the market.
Any state that thinks it can survive in isolation is joking. We provide the demand that makes Lagos what it is.
Recently, you put up some measures to check the activities of bandits, especially by closing some roads and markets, is it paying off?
This order is only seven days old today; and certainly, it is paying, but we will make proper assessment after observing it for at least one month. You know it is economic starvation. If we succeed in starving them economically, it will do many things. One of them is that they will not have the capacity to procure arms and ammunition; they will not have the capacity to even buy food or illicit drugs, and that will put pressures on their leaders so that the boys they recruited from neighbouring villages will have to find their way of coming back. I think that if all of us maximise the pressure it will work. Now, if you kidnap you cannot contact, so money will not flow.
What do you think is the way out of this seemingly intractable problem?
The problem is not intractable, it can be solved. As I said, it would have been difficult if they were propagating an ideology or religious belief that is different from ours or seeking for independence, but they are criminals and bandits. For us to succeed in bringing their criminality under control, government at local, state and federal levels must move in to establish its presence in the areas. Also, we have to know that education is the solution to the problems in that area. Without education, it is a time bomb waiting to explode again. If the areas are free, we should declare educational emergency and put all the necessary facilities to give them both western and Islamic education that will enable them participate meaningfully in the society.
Your tenure will soon end, have you started working towards who will succeed you?
Well, my political party has a process of bringing out leaders who will contest elections, from the councillors to the president. Our intention in the state is to follow the rules of the game. May the best person come who will do better than us.
But most of your colleagues, both past and present, always show interest in who succeeds them.
From experience since 1999 till date, how many of those impositions ended up successfully? Mine is to create a level-playing ground. I leave my fate in the hands of God, not in the hands of any person. And I don’t want a stooge that would be waiting for me. I need somebody to succeed me and do better. I want the best for Katsina. The state is more than me and any other person. Katsina State has been here for many years and will continue to exist even when our grandchildren have gone. So the state is more important. I am hoping for the best for the state.
You are among the proponents of power shift to the South in 2023, but some people are criticising the idea of rotation as promotion of mediocrity and anti-democratic. What do you have to say?
What is the simplest definition of democracy? A government by the majority? Is it not a tyranny of numbers?
It is like a potato seller who puts the big ones on top and the small ones under. Yes, democracy has to be guided, but are we there yet? We still regionise ourselves. For people who think we should be totally dependent on the fact that it is a game of numbers, it doesn’t work. It is a game that should give every part of the country the hope of aspiring to the highest office in the land. Democracy is not madness. It is the responsibility of leadership to do what is right.
Why do you think some of us fought that the constitution should not be amended to allow for continuation for the leader at that time? It was because some people thought it was the time of the North and Obasanjo was trying to kill it. The same people are the ones talking from different sides of their mouths now.
I believe it should go down South, but that does not take away your right to express your opinion. It does not take away my right as Aminu Bello Masari to express my opinion.
What is your take on open grazing and the criticisms against it?
I am in politics to be criticised and agreed with, not to say that whatever I say will go down well with everybody. What brought us to the problem we are having between farmers and herders? Is it not open grazing? So since we realised that it is the problem, why don’t we stop it? But before we stop it, let us put structures on ground. I can’t shut your mouth without having an opening for you to feed.
I am against open grazing, but we must make sure that structures are available. I am not saying everybody should agree with me, but that does not take away my right to express my opinion. That is why we thank the federal government, which has given us N6.25bn. We will also put the same amount to facilitate the process of ranching for grazing, rehabilitating earth dams, constructing new ones, creating community and major grazing areas, as well as develop our cattle routes so that our people will not have to go to a far place in search of water for their animals.
As people of this area who have religious belief, what did Khalifa Umar do about the issue of grazing? That is why I said it is not Islamic to have open grazing. It is a responsibility that leaders must keep.
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